Episode 17: Emotional Freedom

The most important freedom of all.

Why do we want what we want? Why do we want a certain car, more money, good schools for our children, a better physique, etc?

Many people say it’s going to help them achieve something. But actually it’s about a feeling – it’s going to make them feel successful, accomplished, like they are making a difference.

Freedom is an emotion. 

In this episode, host Niel Malan explains why emotional freedom is the most important of the Five Freedoms.

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Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Elite Entrepreneur Show, episode number 17. Today we are going to continue with our series on freedom. I’m going to talk to you about the most important freedom of all: emotional freedom.

If you are new to the show, welcome. We believe that elite entrepreneurs become elite because of a certain mindset and a massive amount of education that you need to succeed and to thrive in a dynamic and changing world. So welcome and let’s dive straight in.

Let me ask you a question: Why do we want what we want? Why do we want to have a certain car? Why do we want to send our kids to private school? Why do we want to have a lean body and possibly some abs and maybe a tight bum? If you really think about it, why is it that we want those things?

Well, you know a lot of people would say, well, it’s going to help me to achieve another goal. But then the question is, why do I want another goal? So a lot of people would say to me, “I want to have financial freedom”. I would say, “Why do you want that?” And they will say, “Well, I’m going to be able to spend more time as my kids and be able to take care of my kids better”.
So I ask why is that important? And then at some point, people will say, “Well, it’s going to make me feel like I’m a good parent”. It always ends in a feeling, or it’s going to make me feel successful. It’s going to make me feel accomplished. It’s going to make me feel like I’m going to make a difference in this world.

Most of the time we acquire resources, we do so because we perceive it’s going to make us feel a particular way. What is freedom, really? Freedom is an emotion more than anything else. It’s a state of being. I can prove it to you.
Have you ever seen some people that seem to have an abundance of resources, they‘ve got a huge amount of money, they’ve got a lot of success in business, they have a lot of friendships, but they seem miserable? Have you ever seen the angry rich guy?
Well, the question is why did those people go and acquire all that wealth and all those resources in the first place? They perceived at some level it’s going to increase their happiness, but it didn’t.

Where a lot of people go wrong with this conversation is they say that the money is the cause of the unhappiness. But actually, the two have nothing to do with one another. I’m going to really try to quantify this in this episode today. But the point is that the acquisition of resources, the attainment of goals does not necessarily lead to emotional freedom. You could have emotional entrapment even when you have all the other freedoms that we spoke about. You can have complete location freedom, time freedom, financial freedom, etc, but still be miserable. That’s entirely possible. Trust me, and I’ve seen this happen more often than what you would realize.

The opposite is also true. I mean, have you ever seen someone that has very, very little? In fact, I’ll tell you a story real quick. I have this gardener, a guy from Malawi. This guy always had a smile on his face and he really had very little means. He came to work on a Thursday morning and he always had a big smile on his face. He was always happy, always cheerful, always jovial. I remember the one time he finished a little bit late. We were putting some new plants in my garden. I offered to go drop him off at the taxi rank where they catch a ride back home, basically. We were running a little bit late and as we stopped, we saw that there was transportation waiting for him right there. This guy had the biggest smile on his face. He looked radiant. He ran over the streets and he was like, “Thank you so much”. He was so cheerful.

I thought to myself, isn’t it interesting how someone with so little can have so much? You see, that man had emotional freedom, even though he had such little resources. So it’s entirely possible to have emotional freedom even when we don’t have freedom and all other areas.

I believe emotional freedom is a standalone topic. Is it influenced by the other freedoms? Absolutely. But is it a requisite to have all the other freedoms and to have all other resources to have emotional freedom? Absolutely not.

Our mind is a great trickster and we have to be aware of this. You see, one of the greatest tragedies in life is that what we believe will make us happy, what we believe will make us feel better, often doesn’t.

I’ll give you another example, a totally different example. There is a lot of research that shows that when people become very stressed, the people’s tendencies – and I’m including myself in this – the tendency is to do things that actually make it worse. The tendency is to eat more. The tendency is to exercise less. If someone is a smoker, which thank heavens I’m no longer, they would smoke more. If someone drinks a lot of alcohol, which I also don’t, they would often drink more. They would often turn to either substances or television or spending time online or playing video games or something like that to feel better. The paradox is every single one of those things I just mentioned makes it worse.

Guess what are the things that help the most? Eating the green stuff, going to exercise, going to the gym, being social, going out, calling on friends, even if you are feeling miserable and you don’t want to be seen in public. Our minds often tell us that the destructive stuff is the good stuff, but it isn’t.
We don’t always have very good perspective as to what will give us a level of emotional freedom. So I believe it warrants a full discussion. Before I get into what I believe is emotional freedom or what leads to it, I want to talk to you a little bit about resources. Why do we have resources?

What are resources? Resource is money, it’s cars, houses, it’s stuff, right? As you know by now, if you’ve been following my show for any period of time… And by the way, if you haven’t watched or listened to episode number 12, I highly recommend that you go and do that before continuing with this one. Go to www.eliteinc.com/12. There I spoke about people believe that they have to choose between money and happiness. I often hear this, would you rather have money or would you rather have happiness? What I said in episode 12 is this is a stupid question. That’s like saying, do I want a left leg or right leg? Have both, okay? They serve different purposes. I think it’s really important, really important that you understand this.

The pursuit of happiness does not mean you shouldn’t pursue resources. It doesn’t mean that. Have both. And I’ll tell you why. There is a relationship between money and happiness, up to about $70 000 per year. There is a massive body of work on this where they found, if people have more money, if they have greater financial resources, is there a link to happiness? And it is. Up to when people earn about $70 000 in the United States. I’m pretty sure in other parts of the world it’s a different number. That’s where I was able to find the research. So up to that point, there is a direct relationship. If you earn more, you are doing it for the happiness, but why? It’s because you can do more.
You’ve got more freedoms in other areas of your life, right? But after that, it doesn’t necessarily influence happiness anymore. So the question is, why would you then pursue earnings beyond $70 000 if it doesn’t lead to happiness? Because it allows you to do all sorts of other things that indirectly influence happiness.

I’ll give you an example. I’m currently watching on Netflix, I’m watching this brilliant series on Bill Gates. A lot of it goes about the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation that delves into what sort of issues they tackle in society to try and make things better. So for example, they were talking about polio, strive to eradicate polio and trying to create clean energy and so forth.
That’s only possible because they have financial resources. It’s only possible because he has invested in his own mind and his own education for a very long period of time. He developed a brand that’s just superior. He is an elite entrepreneur because he invests in his own mind. If you know anything about Bill Gates, you know how much he studies, how much he learns.
He built relationships. You see what I mean? So he is able to have an impact on the world because of his financial resources, because of his resources and business. That’s one reason why. Other reasons why is purely just to have security. Other reasons why it’s good for the economy when entrepreneurs build businesses and having profit as a consequence of building a good businesses, It’s a just good sign of good business.

My point is it’s still absolutely important to pursue the acquisition and accumulation of resources, you know what I mean? Because you are able to make a bigger difference in this world and you are able to have a bigger impact. You are able to provide for your family and you are able to have security where your mind isn’t trapped by constantly worrying about money. But the purpose isn’t happiness. Do you understand what I mean? So I don’t want you to ever get stuck in this questioning process of money or happiness. Have both. That’s the short answer to that question.

Now let’s go into how you achieve emotional freedom. First of all, there are two aspects. There is emotional entrapment and then there is emotional freedom. The opposite of the one doesn’t necessarily lead to the other.
For example, the absence of entrapment doesn’t necessarily lead to greater levels of happiness and greater levels of happiness don’t necessarily lead to the opposite of entrapment. So we have to understand what keeps us slaves emotionally and we have to understand what makes us feel free emotionally.
I’ll tell you some of the big things that I’ve noticed. Now, I’m not a psychologist and I’m definitely not a specialist on emotional wellbeing. These are just my own observations, but they are specific to entrepreneurs. Some of it is generically applicable. Some of it is definitely applicable to entrepreneurs.

I was having a chat with a really good friend of mine a couple of days ago who is running a very successful financial services firm. He started a company from nothing, up to 600 employees and their company is doing incredibly well and he is also finding himself a little bit stretched because he is involved in so many aspects of his business.
He said to me the other day, “Niel, you know, I’m such a people pleaser. I go and help everybody, you know? And what I find is I often get myself to a point where I’m so burned out, so stressed out and so stretched that it’s very hard for me to take care of myself.”
I think a lot of entrepreneurs can relate to that. We often don’t have an awareness how we are feeling. We often don’t have an awareness of how we are doing. Our awareness is what problem should I solve next?

If someone shows up, an employee shows up and there is a problem, boom, you dive in and you solve it. If your partner shows up, there is a problem, boom. You dive in and you show up. And by the way, men, the biggest paradox in this world is if your wife or your girlfriend tells you there is a problem, the opposite of what you should be doing is solve the problem. You should listen. That’s the toughest thing in my entire life. My brain is still trying to wrap that up. But anyway, just a little bit of fun.
The point is that often entrepreneurs, we stretch ourselves. We love what we do, but we sometimes have imbalance, an imbalance in terms of we don’t know how to take care of ourselves. We don’t know how to take care of ourselves physically sometimes, but mostly we don’t know how to take care of ourselves emotionally.

So not having that in check can lead to emotional entrapment. It can make one feel trapped even though you’ve got everything that you always wanted. I promise you, I’m guilty of this all the time. I would go and get… The business will be cooking, money is flowing and everything is great. I’ve got a large amount of freedom, but I still feel emotionally stressed. I feel tied up with commitments and that does not give me a feeling of emotional freedom. But guess what the cause is of that. It’s not the business. It’s, here, right? So that’s one aspect of it.

I think another aspect of it is stress, chronic stress about money, about cash flow, about trying to make sure that we can pay the bills… definitely lead to emotional entrapment. I think that’s why financial freedom is important for a lot of people.
I’ve come 100% to the belief that when people say that they want financial freedom, that’s not really what they want. They want the absence of financial stress. That’s actually what people want. Because I’ve asked thousands of people why they want more money? The answer generally is I don’t want to stress. I don’t want to stress about money. Financial fear. But guess what? It’s impossible. It’s completely possible to double your earnings from where you are right now.

Statistically, it’s shown that the lifestyle doubles as well. And guess what? The financial stress follows you. So having more resources doesn’t guarantee the absence of stress. No. We have to manage that we keep our spending the same and that we start building up cash reserves so that you don’t have the financial stress. I mean, for me personally, I’ve got a very different view to most people when it comes to money. Most financial guys, they will start talking to you immediately about investment. They will tell the save more, which I do agree with 1000% and then they say invest that money.

The reason why they are saying invest the money is because ultimately if you invest long enough into different asset classes, you start getting passive income that overrides your monthly expenses, which according to Robert Kiyosaki, is the definition of financial freedom. But I tell you there is a big part of this equation that has to do with emotional freedom. And I think that’s often what people don’t acknowledge.

For me, nothing beats cash. Nothing beats cash. Why? Because on an emotional level it reduces my stress levels. What do I mean by cash? What I mean my cash is having cash reserves available in your business bank account to cover payroll. It’s called a burn rate. So if you stopped selling today, if there is no more money coming in, how many months, how many days, weeks, months can you cover all of your fixed expenses? That’s called a burn rate.

The longer your burn rate, the lower your stress levels are going to be. Bill Gates had a policy that said they always have to have one year cash in account and if they get close to that, they can’t use that money for investment in further projects or products or whatever the case can be. They have to make a plan. They must go and raise more capital or sell more or something, but he wants one year cash in account.

Can you imagine your business when you have one year’s worth of cash to cover payroll, to cover all of the expenses sitting in your account? Can you imagine what absence of stress you are going to have? How it frees up creativity. How it frees up mental resources. Imagine you’ve got that in your business, but now also imagine you’ve got that in your own personal account.

A lot of us prematurity, I think start investing our money into illiquid asset. For example, a lot of my mates are big into property. They jumped in and their balance sheets are huge. Their cash flow is an absolute shocker. Guess what? That balance sheet doesn’t reduce stress. It doesn’t reduce stress. It increases stress. Why? Because when interest rates are going up and tenants are defaulting and the municipalities are hiking rates, guess what? The financial equation changes and it causes more stress. Do you understand?

So for me, cash is king. For me, I build up cash in the business and I build up cash in my own personal account because the same applies. I should be able to, for one full year, not earn a cent and I have enough money in my account where I can live the same, the exact same lifestyle today without compromising travel, without compromising quality schooling for the kids or anything like that. One year, I should be able to cover all my expenses.

So what I do? I do build up cash first before I invest. That cash sits in account. It sets an interest bearing account where I’m earning 5%, 6%, 7% on it and I don’t invest it. It’s just sitting there. A lot of people are like, “Niel, are you nuts? You are money isn’t working for you”. Do you know what it is doing? It is reducing my stress levels for me and I’ll take that any day, thank you very much. But that’s just me. I’m not a financial planner. I’m not a financial advisor. It’s just a different way of thinking about it.

Coming back to stress levels, so managing and reducing stress and starting with financial stress is a really big factor. I tell you there is another massive factor, which is fear. I think that we spent way too much of our lives living in fear, living in worry, living in a state of anxiety. It’s not entirely a bad thing. I think fear does serve a purpose. A lot of people poo-poo it and say, feel the fear and do it anyway. There is a degree of truth to it, but fear serves a purpose. It makes you alert to things. It helps you to pay attention to things. It helps you to stay vigilant. So I don’t think that fear and anxiety doesn’t have a place. I think that there is a place, but you don’t want to live in that space. You don’t want to live in a state of perpetual worry, a state of perpetual fear.

I’ve got an uncle, for example, who is exceptionally wealthy and this guy just lives in fear most of his life, and he is so rich. But some part of him, it’s just not enough. The not enough isn’t driven by greed. It’s driven by fear. It’s driven by, “Oh my God, what if I lose things?” That’s an unhealthy perspective to have. I think we want to put a bit of a lid on fear and make sure it doesn’t control us. So that’s on the one side that. That’s what we want to try and get away from. But what should we move towards? What should we put our minds on? What should we focus on? I believe some of the factors that can the most meaningfully and immediately impact your sense and my sense of emotional freedom are the following.

The first is, pursue meaning. It has often been said… Steve Jobs said it. He said that it’s so hard running a business that unless it’s meaningful to you, you won’t have the resilience, you won’t have the staying power to see it through and to build something incredible. It has to be deeply meaningful to you. It has to be something that makes you feel gratified. It has to be something that makes you feel like you are going to make a difference. That’s why on the previous episode when I spoke about impact freedom, I believe it’s such a huge contributor to emotional freedom, because I’ve just seen this for myself. If I’m really connected with helping you guys, talking to you guys, creating content and passing on knowledge and value and empowering people, it just feels unbelievable.

Even if you are having difficult times and you are going through struggles and strains in other areas of your life, it’s still exceptionally powerful to have a vocation that’s meaningful.
So I believe one should pursue meaning above all else as far as your career is concerned, as far as everything else is concerned. Do work that’s meaningful to you. Do you work that is personally enriching, personally enhancing. There is no worse death than doing work every day that you don’t find meaningful. I use the word death meaningfully because if you physically die, you die only once. If you inside every day die, when you go to work that you hate and you work with people that you dislike, and you do work begrudgingly, you are dying every single day.
It’s not something that happens once. It’s something that happens daily. How do you solve that problem? You pursue meaningful work.

The next thing is a feeling of flow. Now, flow is a very interesting subject. There is a book called Flow written by a guy called Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. Flow is the lack of awareness of what you are busy with.
Let me explain it to you. Have you ever been in a situation where you got completely lost in your work or in a conversation and hours later you emerge and you look at your watch and say, “Oh my goodness, where did the time go?” Well, guess what? You were in a feeling of flow. Flow is when you are deeply engaged in the work that you do. You find it meaningful. You find it interesting. You find it challenging. That’s also really important. It’s really important that you do challenging work because it puts you into a state of flow.

Now, I want to address a little bit of a paradox here real quick, which I’m really going to address in episode number 18. The paradox between some of the stuff that I’ve been teaching you is to have freedom – have time freedom, location freedom, et cetera. One would often think, what would you do with all that extra time? For me, it’s to spend more time doing meaningful work and being in a state of flow rather than in a state of pure holiday mode.
Listen, I’ve done that. I’ve retired before and I spent a couple of months just being on holiday. You become miserable. You become a menace. You become bored. You apply yourself to all sorts of things that just… it doesn’t lead to a meaningful life.

At the end of the day, you want to stay busy, but do you want to stay busy doing meaningful work. If that meaningful work for you is spending time with your kids and then you go to work, that’s cool. If meaning for you is spending time at the animal shelter or working with children or other nonprofits that you feel passionate about, that’s great. If meaningful work for you is helping entrepreneurs like I’ve got the privilege to do, or other communities, that’s great, but you want to stay busy. You don’t want to not stay busy. You want to challenge yourself. You want to constantly pursue challenges. That’s really important. You don’t want a life that has the opposite of challenge. Challenge isn’t what makes you stressed. Stress is what makes you stress. It’s the stuff we already addressed earlier.

Setting challenges for yourself in areas that are meaningful is highly engaging. So a state of flow is a beautiful thing because you don’t have awareness of, “I’m not enjoying what I’m doing or when is this work on an end, when is this meeting going to end?” You are deeply engaged and that’s a very powerful state of being. There is a lot that’s written on this topic, so I’m not going to have enough time in this episode to really talk about how you get yourself into a state of flow.
Maybe I’ll do an episode on this going forward, but it’s a really powerful state. In fact, if I had to recommend a book to you, there is a book called Bold by Peter Diamandis. In one of his chapters he talks about… how to activate the state of flow, brilliant.

The next topic is gratitude, gratitude. So my good friend, Dr. John Demartini wrote a whole book on the power of gratitude. When you spend time feeling truly grateful for what you have in your life, you become wealthy.
I first heard the statement by Tony Robbins and at the time that I heard it I was physically broke and I said, “Listen, I hear what you are saying, but I’ll have the money first. Thank you.”
But what he said was true. He said that the quickest way to be wealthy is to be emotionally wealthy. And the quickest way to be emotionally wealthy is to spend time being grateful. I think it’s something that we have to be proactive about. Gratitude for most people doesn’t just show up. Problems just show up because they grab attention. They grab your mind much more so than what’s great.

There is a really interesting reason for this. Our brains are hardwired to focus on problems. I don’t know if you know this, but biologically, our brains are much more geared towards focusing on problems and what’s wrong than what’s right. I can tell you there is a very practical reason for it. I thought about it one day and I thought, why is that? I read about this thing called the Zeigarnik effect, which the psychologist with the surname name of Zeigarnik spoke about why our brains are much more responsive to things where there is no closure, where there are open loops, where there is danger. Her feeling was that it’s a survival mechanism. So I thought about it and I thought, you know, it’s really true.

Imagine the day in the caveman. You go out and you are the optimist, you are in a state of eternal gratitude. You go out for a hunt and you are just purely enjoying the sun and feeling great about life or whatever. And there is a little rustle, you know, there is a little noise in the bushes there, but you kind of ignore that because you are in a state of abundance. And a saber tooth tiger jumps out and eats you for lunch and you are dead, a very grateful dead person. That’s maybe a bit overly dramatic, but do you understand what I’m saying? For survival, your brain had to immediately block out everything else and focus just on that danger. Why is it that little rustle of the leaves, you know that noise? What is it? And you had to immediately respond to that whole thing.
So biologically, we are designed to be much more responsive to things that are wrong.

Listen, how many things are wrong in this world? That’s why I block out news. Again, a lot of people accuse me of being ignorant and I don’t care what people say. That’s their problem, not mine. My feeling is the more time I spend reading newspapers, the more bad news comes in. The more time I watch television, the more bad news comes in. I haven’t had cable television (in South Africa we call it DStv) for three years because it’s rubbish. Spending time on news websites, I block it out. Why? Because I want to control what goes in. I read books, I go to conferences, I listen to podcasts because I want to focus on the areas that I want to develop my brain in. Because I know if I allow a lot of the problems to come in, my brain would get obsessed with it. And that’s why so many people are so negative.

It’s the weirdest thing. I’m in South Africa at this point, as many of you guys know, and we’ve got a lot of problems around here. Then I look at some of my friends in the US and they are not necessarily in a better state of emotional well-being, but their relative level of safety, etc, is significantly better than ours. But over there, there are also problems. You know, there is Trump and there is the Chinese trade situation and so forth. Then you go to the UK and there is Brexit. You know what I mean? Everywhere there are these problems. And the problem is that if we allow the problems to dominate our minds, that becomes our reality.

The best way to offset this problem, this challenge is to be in a state of gratitude, because the more we focus on what’s right, the less space there is for things that aren’t right. But it’s a proactive effort. In the same way as what you’ve got to go for a shower every single day, you’ve got to every day practice gratitude.

It’s so funny. Once I was listening to this interview and there is this guy wrote the book called Scam and he basically said the whole self-development industry is a scam. All the guys that he interviewed said, “But why do you say that?” He said, “Well, it doesn’t last. You go to this motivational seminar and you feel all pumped up for three days and then you come back and reality strikes and you are right back to where you were. It doesn’t work”.

The best retort, the best retort ever was the co-author from Chicken Soup for the Soul, a guy called Mark Victor Hansen. He said, “Listen, let me ask you a question”. The guy said, “Sure”. He said, “Do you shower every day?” He says, “Of course I shower”. He said, “Why?” He said, “Well, every day some muck and sweat and whatever builds up”. He said, “But you showered yesterday. Why would you…?” He said, “Because you get dirty during the day?” He said, “Well, that’s just the same as what self-development is. Whoever said you are going to do your seminar once and for the rest of your life you are going to spend time in eternal bliss. It doesn’t work like that. The world is full of muck and grime. It comes and sits on you. You’ve got to take a mental shower every day the same as a physical shower.”

The guy was completely silent, like he couldn’t come back from that. And I loved it. I was like doing a silent applause. I was like, whew. I’m not talking about motivational thinking or positive thinking. I’m talking just about gratitude. What are you grateful for? Another point… There are two more points. I know it’s quite a long episode. Then I’ve got to run. I’ve got a meeting starting just now.

Another factor I believe that leads incredibly, contributes hugely to emotional freedom is taking risks. I’m going to qualify this. Fear happens as a result of fantasies that happen in one’s mind, right? So I’m worried this thing is going to happen. This bad thing is going to happen and therefore my mind tells me, listen, there is danger on the horizon. Until I go and do it and then there is no danger on the horizon anymore. You know, it’s a little bit like if you are in the dark and you have this nightmare. You know, the boogeyman is everywhere until you switch on the light, and then the boogeyman is gone.
I think taking risks is often like that. I think taking risks in life, taking risks in love, taking risks in business it makes you resourceful. It makes you better because when the risk doesn’t pan out… sometimes it doesn’t always pan out, sometimes there is a downside. You learn, I can cope with it, I can survive with it, I’m still cool. But more often than not, you actually get the goal accomplished and you become better in the process and it’s engaging and it’s fun. It makes you stronger. I think we should all take more risks more often.

I’m not talking about being dumb. You know Richard Branson says you’ve got to protect the downside and I believe that. You can’t just go and do stupid risks. You’ve got to take small risks. But take them often because it makes you stronger emotionally, mentally and physically.

And then my friends, the final one before I sign off for today is relationships. The number one factor that will influence your state of happiness and health in life, emotional health in life is relationships. Massive amount of research has been done on this, absolutely conclusive. The relationships you have in your life, the quality of the relationships that you have in your life will more than anything else, determine how you feel about your life. There is nothing that will influence how you feel more about it. So make sure that your relationships with your partner, with your spouse, with your kids are solid and sound, and make sure your business relationships are also great.

Guys, I know it has been a very, very long show and you can see I’m very passionate about this topic, but I want to know what you think. I want you to go to www.eliteinc.com/17 and tell me, how do you feel emotionally? How do you feel emotionally? Do you feel that there are areas in your life where you feel stuck emotionally that doesn’t necessarily have to do with the outside world? You may be carrying resentment towards someone else and you can’t let go of that anger. You maybe have almost unrealistic fears about things. Or are there things that you do that emotionally make you feel free even though you may not be free in other areas of your life?

I want to know what you think. I want to know what your questions are, so please join us in the conversation. Go to www.eliteinc.com/17 and please comment. I love reading your comments and even if I don’t always reply, I always read them and I really appreciate them. Thank you very much.

Those of you guys that like watching on YouTube, please remember to hit the subscribe button. Those of you guys who like the podcast, please remember to subscribe so that you can get notifications of future shows. Those of you guys who want to have an awesome online business and who needs our help remember to go to www.eliteinc.com/17 to book a complimentary 15-minute call with one of my team members.

Finally folks, I want to just tell you I appreciate you. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you are watching me right now or listening to me speak on a podcast, it means that you stayed the entire episode. I don’t take it for granted. I know your time is valuable. Well done on educating yourself. Thank you for joining the conversation. I appreciate you and I’ll see you on episode number 18 where I’m going to round up the topic of freedom. I’ll see you on the next one.

2019-10-18T06:19:04+00:00